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Anglin
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« le: 02 Août 2004, 15:45:24 »

a voir a mon avis (en anglais) :
http://tolkien.slimy.com/#VeryFAQs

pas mal pour certaines allegations : j'ai copier/coller ici qq interventions sur les nains ....

Citation
# Did Dwarf women have beards?

[This updates question V.D.1 of the Tolkien FAQ.]

Yes. The most canonical evidence for this comes in Appendix A, where it is said of Dwarf women that
They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.

It seems that (male) Dwarves in Middle-earth all have beards: among other evidence, as Bilbo sets out on his adventure in The Hobbit, we read that "His only comfort was that he couldn't be mistaken for a dwarf, as he had no beard." Given that, the quote above must imply that Dwarf women were bearded as well.

However, we do not need to rely on such implications: Tolkien answered this question explicitly in other texts. In The War of the Jewels ("The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Naugrim and the Edain", written ~1951), Tolkien wrote that
no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like to die of shame... For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike...

In The Peoples of Middle-earth, Christopher Tolkien says that a similar statement was present in an earlier draft of Appendix A as well. As these statements are entirely in agreement with the canonical evidence cited above, the conclusion that Dwarf women had beards seems inescapable.
===============================================

FAQs — C. The Seven and the Nine Rings
C1. How did the Seven and the Nine differ?

We're not sure; possibly there was no difference.

It's easy to see that the Dwarves did different things with the Seven than Men did with the Nine. Sauron could not dominate the wills of the Dwarves through the Rings, nor could they be turned to wraiths. The main effect seemed to be to intensify the standard Dwarvish greed for gold, which of course provided plenty of occasion for quarrels between Dwarves. Men, on the other hand, became great kings and sorcerers on their way to becoming wraiths [Silm: Rings (288-289)].

Those seem like differences between Men and Dwarves, not between two groups of Rings. Several quotes imply that Sauron just took the sixteen Rings he got from his war on the Elves and handed some to Dwarves and others to Men. For instance: "Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out. ... Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will." [Silm: Rings (288)]

On the other hand, the "History of Galadriel and Celeborn" goes into some detail about Sauron's seizure of the Rings: "There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mirdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three." [UT: GC (238)]  This could be read two ways. Either (a) the Nine were taken first by Sauron because they were considered less valuable by the Elves and were less carefully guarded, or (b) seven (of the sixteen) had already been given out and nine were still in the Elves' treasury, but there was no intrinsic difference between them and whether a Dwarf or Man ended up with a particular ring was just the luck of the draw.

(I am grateful to Conrad Dunkerson for drawing my attention to that passage from Unfinished Tales [r.a.b.t article, 9 Jun 2001, archived here].)

===============================================
C2. Were the Seven and Nine Rings originally intended for Dwarves and Men?

(last revised 5 Mar 2004 )

Almost certainly not. The intended purpose of the Rings was preserving Middle-earth from change This is an Elvish motive, not likely to appeal to Dwarves and especially not to Men.

In the Ring-rhyme, only the sixth and seventh lines ("One Ring to rule them all ...") were spoken by Sauron. They were most likely part of the spell that created the One Ring, since he also inscribed the verses in the Ring. Gandalf quotes those lines (in the Black Speech and then in Westron) at the Council of Elrond, adding: "Out of the Black Years come the words that the Smiths of Eregion heard, and knew that they had been betrayed" [LotR II 2 (271-272)].

The other six lines were "lore", written by some unknown person after Sauron had seized the Seven and the Nine Rings and given them out to his intended victims. When those lines cite numbers of Rings "for" Elves, Dwarves, and Men, that is hindsight and not an expression of original intent. Tolkien makes this clear at one point where he mentions Sauron handing out the seized Rings and then adds "Hence the 'ancient rhyme' that appears as the leit-motif of The Lord of the Rings [L #131 (153)].

Steuard Jensen points out [r.a.b.t article, 16 Jul 2002, archived here] that not only did the Elves originally intend for the Seven and the Nine to be kept by Elves, Sauron originally intended it too. When he made and put on the One Ring to control the others and their wearers, he intended to make the Elf-lords his slaves. But they immediately realized his purpose and thwarted him by taking off their Rings. Only then did he make open war on Eregion, take the Rings, and give them out to Men and Dwarves. (The above-cited article lays out an interesting scenario for how things might have gone if the Elves had not realized their danger and thus fallen under his domination.)

There may be one exception. Thorin Oakenshield's ancestors, down to his father, bore one of the Seven. "The Dwarves of Durin's Folk ... say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it." [LotR App A(III) (1113)].  Perhaps this is one of the legends about a great leader, like George Washington and the cherry tree, that are part of a people's tradition without being literally true. This particular Dwarvish tradition is contradicted by The Silmarillion: "Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power. ... Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves" [Silm: Rings (288)].
==============================================
C3. Did the Dwarves' Rings make them invisible?

(last revised 28 Aug 2002 )

Most likely not. "The Dwarves indeed proved hard to tame, ... nor can they be turned to shadows." [Silm: Rings (288)]  Invisibility is a partial shift into Sauron's world, and becoming a wraith (like the Nazgûl) is a complete and permanent shift. Since we're told that Dwarves never become wraiths, it seems likely that they also didn't become invisible.

If Tolkien ever published a definitive statement on this point, I don't know it. Conrad Dunkerson pointed out [r.a.b.t article, 24 Aug 2002, archived here] that Tolkien did write one sentence on this point in a draft of LotR: "The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible." (See "Of Gollum and the Ring" in The Return of the Shadow.)

See also:  Invisibility
===============================================
C4. Would the Dwarves' Rings make a Man invisible?

(added 17 Jan 2003 )

Tolkien didn't answer this directly, but we can pretty safely infer from things Tolkien did say that the answer is Yes. For one thing, there might have been no difference between the Seven and the Nine. Also, the fact that the Dwarves don't become wraiths (and therefore presumably don't turn invisible) is in the nature of the Dwarves, not the nature of the Rings. Finally, of the Great Rings, Tolkien makes an exception by saying that the Three Rings don't confer invisibility, but he makes no such exception for the Seven.

See also:  Invisibility
===============================================
C5. Did the Dwarves' Rings make them wealthy?

(added 17 Feb 2002 )

Yes. The Seven Rings both inflamed the natural Dwarvish lust for gold and brought wealth to the Dwarves who bore each of them. [Silm: Rings (288-289)]

But this was not because the Seven were designed to create wealth. Rather, it was the normal functioning of any Ring of Power in enhancing the powers of its bearer. Dwarves were naturally both greedy for gold and good at creating wealth; the Seven Rings magnified both these Dwarvish traits.

How did the Seven Rings create wealth? We are not told directly, only that the Ring of Thrór and Thráin "needs gold to breed gold". [LotR App A(III) (1110,1113)]  The Dwarves were all superb businessmen; Steuard Jensen once suggested that perhaps the Seven worked by enhancing their natural ability to drive a hard bargain and lowering the sales resistance of the people they dealt with. Perhaps "needs gold to breed gold" is the origin of the contemporary saying among business people that "it takes money to make money." [Silm: Rings (289)]


Pour le topic sur les sept anneaux il serait peut etre bon de recouper au passage si notre version manque de poids pour certains points notés ici :

http://chroniqueschantdefer.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=520

même si le travail de Kehldarin en la matière est assez complet !
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Stéphane Grignon <Anglin>
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« Répondre #1 le: 02 Août 2004, 15:50:40 »

dans le même style : chouffez moi ce site (enfin cette page !):
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Dwarves_(Middle-earth)
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Stéphane Grignon <Anglin>
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« Répondre #2 le: 02 Août 2004, 18:01:09 »

Citation de: "Anglin"
dans le même style : chouffez moi ce site


chouffer??


sinon, la description de cette page me semble plutôt bien faite. C'est très concis mais cela aborde bcp de caractèristiques des Nains, et ce, de  manière exacte.

Durin
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ept pour les Seigneurs nains dans leurs demeures de pierre
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