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Anglin
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« le: 28 Avril 2003, 16:15:14 »

Pour me permettre de faire un travail propre sur mon site !!!
Voilà mes premières :

1-Quelqu'un a-t-il les référence d'une des oeuvres de Tolkien parlant de la taille des Nains ?

2-Références sur les années précise du premier age ou l'on parle de nains (Azaghal, Telchar, Sac de Menegroth ...)
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Kehldarin
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« Répondre #1 le: 29 Avril 2003, 18:43:43 »

J'ai pas les livres sous la mains, alors j'éditerais, mais l'azaghâl de Gabilgathol c'était à la bataille des larmes innombrables, et les nains font entre 4 et 5 pieds de haut (entre 1.2m et 1.5m, à peu près)
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ok
« Répondre #2 le: 30 Avril 2003, 11:24:48 »

oui je sais mais j'arrive pas a trouver une référence ecrite sur la taille dans l'oeuvre de Tolkien .....
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« Répondre #3 le: 01 Mai 2003, 14:50:08 »

*de retour*

Citation
Telchar
Le plus célèbre forgeron de Nogrod, celui qui trempa Angrist et (d'après Aragorn dans Les Deux Tours, Le Seigneur des Anneaux) Narsil.

Références dans le Silmarillion :
Chapitre X, Les Sindar : 118-5
Chapitre XIX, Beren et Lúthien : 232-3


Citation
Azaghâl
Seigneur des Nains de Belegost, blessa Glaurung à Nirnaeth Arnoediad et fut tué par lui.

Références dans le Silmarillion :
Chapitre XX, La Cinquième Bataille : Nirnaeth Arnoediad : 255-1


Citation
Dwarves are short, about 4 1/2 to 5 feet tall (Guide of Middle Earth)


Je cherche pour les citations sur la taille dans les oeuvres de Tolkien, pour l'instant je n'ai que ça  :oops: )
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Lilith
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« Répondre #4 le: 05 Mai 2003, 16:31:04 »

Peut-être dans Bilbo Huh Après tout, c'est la première apparition des nains.
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« Répondre #5 le: 05 Mai 2003, 16:50:37 »

Citation: Dwarves are short, about 4 1/2 to 5 feet tall (Guide of Middle Earth)
et pas d'autres references dans les oeuvres plus connues ?

pour lilith c'est vrai que bilbo est une vraie mine lui aussi
(marché aux jouets de Dale par exemple, les nains sont les plus doués pour cela, le saviez-vous ?!)
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« Répondre #6 le: 06 Mai 2003, 15:10:14 »

Je précise quand même que azaghâl est selon moi (et selon Ardalambion, aussi, quand même Sourire), un nom commun (une fonction, général ou seigneur de guerre, voire seigneur tout court), pas un nom propre. Le principal argument est que c'est du Khuzdûl et que les nains ne donnent pas leurs noms en khuzdûl, alors que des fonctions comme azghâl ou uzbad, ou des lieux, c'est envisageable pour eux.
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« Répondre #7 le: 06 Mai 2003, 15:36:44 »

Citation de: "Kehldarin"
Je précise quand même que azaghâl est selon moi (et selon Ardalambion, aussi, quand même Sourire), un nom commun (une fonction, général ou seigneur de guerre, voire seigneur tout court), pas un nom propre. Le principal argument est que c'est du Khuzdûl et que les nains ne donnent pas leurs noms en khuzdûl, alors que des fonctions comme azghâl ou uzbad, ou des lieux, c'est envisageable pour eux.


Les Chroniques de Chant de Fer (CCF) ne sont pas aussi pretentieuses que cela et Kehldarin nous sommes toute ouie à ce genre de remraques evidement, peut tu donner un lien ou une url directe a cette allusion sur Azaghal .....
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« Répondre #8 le: 06 Mai 2003, 18:51:28 »

Bien sûr Sourire

lien demandé

Et la partie intéressante c'est ça :

Citation
In chapter 20 of the Silmarillion, we are given one Dwarvish name, Azaghâl, the name of the Dwarf-lord of Belegost. Perhaps it is a title or nickname rather than his true "inner name". It has been suggested that it means "warrior", being related to the Númenorean verb azgarâ- "wage war" (SD:439).
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« Répondre #9 le: 30 Juillet 2003, 13:13:05 »

Et en français :

Citation
Au chapitre 20 du Silmarillion, il est donné un nom de nain, Azaghâl, le nom du Seigneur des Nains de Belegost. Il est possible que ce soit plutôt un titre ou un surnom, plutôt que son véritable "nom intérieur". On a proposé de le traduire par "guerrier", étant lié au verbe númenoréen azgarâ- "faire la guerre" (SD:439).


ps : SD c'est Sauron Defeated, le tome IX de History of Middle Earth.
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« Répondre #10 le: 07 Août 2003, 21:52:48 »

Citation de: "Anglin"
2-Références sur les années précise du premier age ou l'on parle de nains (Azaghal, Telchar, Sac de Menegroth ...)


A mon avis on doit pouvoir trouver ça dans les Grey Annals...

Je chercherai ça demain Cool
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« Répondre #11 le: 11 Août 2003, 20:03:44 »

Bon, d'accord, on est un peu plus tard que demain...mais bon  :wink:

Donc, dans les Grey Annals (la dernière version des Annales du Beleriand, publiée dans HoMe XI), on a:

Citation de: "Année des Valar 1250"
In this year the Norn-folk came first over the mountains into Beleriand. This people the Noldor after named the Naugrim, whom some Men call Dwarves. Their most ancient dwellings were far to the East, but they had delved for themselves great halls and mansions, after the manner of their kind, on the east-side of Eryd Luin, north and south of Mount Dolmed, in those places which the Eldar named Belegost and Nogrod (but they Gabilgathol and Tumunzahar). Thence they now came forth and made themselves known to the Elves; and the Elves were amazed, for they had deemed themselves to be the only living things in Middle-earth that spoke with words or wrought with hands; and that all others were beasts and birds only.
Nonetheless they could understand no word of the tongue of the Naugrim, which to their ears was cumbrous and unlovely; and few ever of the Eldar have achieved the mastery of it. But the Dwarves were swift to learn (after a fashion), and indeed were more willing to learn the Elven-tongue than to teach to aliens their own; and soon there was much parley between the peoples. Ever cool was their friendship, though much profit they had one of the other. But at that time those griefs that lay between them had not yet come to pass, and they were welcomed by King Thingol.
How the Dwarves came into the world the Eldar know not for certain, though the loremasters have elsewhere recorded the tales of the Naugrim themselves (such as they would reveal) concerning their beginning. They say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, brought them into being; and however that may be, certain it is that they were great smiths and masons, though of old there was little beauty in their works. Iron and copper they loved to work more than silver or gold, and stone more than wood.


Citation de: "Année des Valar 1300"
Now Melian had after the manner of the Maiar; the people of Valinor, much foresight. And when two of the ages of the Chaining of Melkor had passed, she counselled Thingol that the Peace of Arda would not last for ever; and he therefore bethought him how he should make for himself a kingly dwelling, and a place that should be strong, if evil were to awake again in Middle-earth. He called therefore upon the Enfeng, the Longbeards of Belegost, whom he had befriended, and sought their aid and counsel. And they gave it willingly, for they were unwearied in those days, and eager for new works. And though the Dwarves ever demanded a price for all that they did, whether with delight or with toil, at this time they held themselves paid. For Melian taught them much wisdom, which they were eager to get; whereas Thingol rewarded them with many fair pearls. These Círdan gave to him, for they were got in great number in the shallow waters about the Isle of Balar; but the Naugrim had not before seen their like, and they held them dear. And one there was great as a dove's egg, and its sheen was as the starlight upon the foam of the sea; Nimphelos it was named, and the chieftain of the Enfeng prized it above a mountain of wealth.
Therefore the Naugrim laboured long and gladly for Thingol, and devised for him mansions after the fashion of their folk, delved deep in the earth. Where the River Esgalduin flowed down, dividing Neldoreth from Region, there was in the midst of the forest a rocky hill, and the river ran at its feet. There they made the gates of the halls of Thingol, and they built a bridge of stone over the river, by which alone the gates could be entered. But beyond the gates wide passages ran down to high halls and chambers far below that were hewn in the living stone, so many and so great that that dwelling was named Menegroth, the Thousand Caves.
But the Elves also had part in that labour, and Elves and Dwarves together, each with their own skills, there wrought out the visions of Melian, images of the wonder and beauty of Valinor beyond the Sea. The pillars of Menegroth were hewn in the likeness of the beeches of Oromë, stock, bough, and leaf, and they were lit with lanterns of gold. The nightingales sang there as in the gardens of Lórien; and there were fountains of silver, and basins of marble, and floors of many-coloured stones. Carven figures of beasts and of birds there ran upon the walls, or climbed upon the pillars, or peered among the branches entwined with many flowers. And as the years passed Melian and her maidens filled the halls with webs of many hues, wherein could be read the deeds of the Valar, and many things that had befallen in Arda since its beginning, and shadows of things that were yet to be. That was the fairest dwelling of any king that hath ever been east of the Sea.


Citation de: "Années des Valar 1300-1350"
After the building of Menegroth was achieved, there was peace in the realm of Thingol. The Naugrim would come ever and anon over the mountains and visit Menegroth and go in traffick about the land, though they went seldom to the Falas, for they hated the sound of the Sea and feared to look on it; but otherwise there came to Beleriand no rumour or tidings of the world without. But it came to pass that the Dwarves were troubled, and they spoke to King Thingol, saying that the Valar had not rooted out utterly the evils of the North, and now the remnant, having long multiplied in the dark, were coming forth once more and roaming far and wide. &#8216;There are fell beasts,' said they, &#8216;in the land east of the mountains, and the dark-elves that dwell there, your ancient kindred, are flying from the plains to the hills.&#8217;


Citation de: "Année des Valar 1330"
And ere long (in the year 1330 according to the annals that were made in Doriath) the evil creatures came even to Beleriand, over passes in the mountains, or up from the south through the dark forests. Wolves there were, or creatures that walked in wolf-shapes, and other fell beings of shadow.
Among these were the Orkor indeed, who after wrought ruin in Beleriand; but they were yet few and wary and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the return of their Lord. Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, deeming them to be Avari, maybe, that had become evil and savage in the wild. In which they guessed all too near, it is said.
Therefore Thingol bethought [him] of arms, which before his folk had not needed, and these at first the Naugrim smithied for him. For they were greatly skilled in such work, though none among them surpassed the craftsmen of Nogrod, of whom Telchar the Smith was the greatest in renown. A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely with whomsoever aggrieved them: folk of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom with their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships. Their smith-craft indeed the Sindar soon learned of them; yet in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail of linked rings (which the Enfeng first contrived) their work had no rival.
At this time therefore the Sindar were well armed, and they drove off all creatures of evil, and had peace again; but Thingol's armouries were stored with axes (the chief weapons of the Naugrim, and of the Sindar), and with spears and swords, and tall helms, and long coats of bright mail: for the hauberks of the Enfeng were so fashioned that they rusted not and shone ever as were they new-burnished. This proved well for Thingol in the time that was to come.


Citation de: "Année du Soleil 102"
this year Inglor and his sister Galadriel were long the guests of Thingol their kinsman. And Inglor was filled with wonder at the beauty and strength of Menegroth, and he desired greatly to make for himself a strong place in like manner. Therefore he opened his heart to Thingol, telling him of his dreams; and Thingol spoke to him of the caves under the High Faroth on the west-bank of Narog, and when he departed gave him guides to lead him to that place of which few yet knew. Thus Inglor came to the Caverns of Narog and began there to establish deep halls and armouries, after the manner of Menegroth; and that stronghold was called Nargothrond. Wherefore the Noldor named him Felagund, Lord of Caves, and that name he bore until his end. But Galadriel did not depart [added later: from Doriath], and remained long with Melian, for there was much love between them.


Citation de: "Année du Soleil 102"
About this time it is recorded that Nargothrond was full-wrought, and Finrod's sons were gathered there to a feast and Galadriel came from Doriath and dwelt there a while. Now King Inglor Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this was; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: &#8216;An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfill it and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of all my realm endure that a son should inherit.&#8217;


Citation de: "Année du Soleil 150"
The people of Cranthir Fëanor's son dwelt beyond the upper waters of Gelion, about Lake Helevorn under the shadow of the Blue Mountains. At this time it is said that they first climbed into the mountains and looked eastward, and wide and wild it seemed to them was Middle-earth. Thus it was that Cranthir's folk first came upon the Naugrim, who after the onslaught of Morgoth and the coming of the Noldor had ceased their traffick into Beleriand. Now, though either people loved skill and was eager to learn, there was little love between the Noldor and the Dwarves. For the Dwarves were secret and quick to resentment, whereas Cranthir was haughty and scarce concealed his scorn for the unloveliness of the Naugrim, and his folk followed their lord. Nonetheless, since both peoples feared and hated Morgoth they made alliance, and had of it great profit. For the Naugrim learned many secrets of craft in those days, so that the smiths and masons of Nogrod and Belegost became renowned among their kin; but the Noldor got great wealth of iron, and their armouries became filled with store of weapons and harness of war. Moreover thereafter, until the power of Maidros was overthrown, all the traffick of the dwarf-mines passed first through the hands of Cranthir, and thus he won great riches.


Citation de: "Année du Soleil 468"
In this time Maidros began those counsels for the raising of the fortunes of the Eldar that are called the Union of Maidros. For new hope ran through the land, because of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, and it seemed to many that Morgoth was not unconquerable, and that fear only gave him his power. Yet still the Oath of Fëanor lived and hindered all good, and not least the evil that Celegorn and Curufin had done because of it. Thus Thingol would lend no aid to any son of Fëanor; and small help came from Nargothrond: there the Noldor trusted rather to defend their hidden stronghold by secrecy and stealth. But Maidros had the help of the Naugrim, both in armed force and in great store of weapons[...]


Citation de: "Année du Soleil 472"
[...]Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Enfeng of [Nogrod >] Belegost, and thus won renown. Now the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was the custom moreover of the Enfeng to wear great masks [struck out: or vizors] in battle hideous to look upon, which stood them in good stead against the drakes. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage he turned and struck down Azaghâl of Belegost and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghâl drove a knife into his belly and so wounded him that he fled the field and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. Had Azaghâl but borne a sword great woe would have been spared to the Noldor that after befell [added:] but his knife went not deep enough. / But then the Enfeng raised up the body of Azaghâl and bore it away; and with slow steps they walked behind, singing a dirge in their deep voices, as it were a funeral pomp in their own country, and gave no heed more to their foes; and indeed none dared to stay them.[...]


C'est tout ce qu'il y a ; les Annales s'achèvent à la mort de Turin, et on n'y trouve pas l'histoire du Nauglamir.
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« Répondre #12 le: 12 Août 2003, 09:39:51 »

envoies moi ça en fichier word si tu peux Meneldur
c'est un sacré beau cadeau que celui-là !
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« Répondre #13 le: 12 Août 2003, 13:48:41 »

Je t'envoie ça tout de suite Anglin  :wink:
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« Répondre #14 le: 14 Août 2003, 12:58:37 »

merci beaucoup ....
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Stéphane Grignon <Anglin>
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